In this episode, Mike Gardon chats with Mark Herschberg. Mark Herschberg is the author of The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You. From tracking criminals and terrorists on the dark web to creating marketplaces and new authentication systems, Mark has spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and Fortune 500s and in academia. He helped to start the Undergraduate Practice Opportunities Program, dubbed MIT’s “career success accelerator,” where he teaches annually. At MIT, he received a B.S. in physics, a B.S. in electrical engineering & computer science, and a M.Eng. in electrical engineering & computer science, focusing on cryptography. At Harvard Business School, Mark helped create a platform used to teach finance at prominent business schools. He also works with many non-profits, currently serving on the board of Plant A Million Corals. He was one of the top-ranked ballroom dancers in the country and now lives in New York City, where he is known for his social gatherings, including his annual Halloween party, as well as his diverse cufflink collection.
IN THIS EPISODE, YOU’LL LEARN:
- Mark’s background
- How work teams have changed and why career skills are needed more than in the past
- How to take your work experience and put it into an operating system
- Technical vs firm skills
- How to figure out which skills have the most leverage and best ROI
- How and when you should go about acquiring skills
- How to narrow down your career plan by asking questions
- Why negotiation is important and can have lasting impact
- Mark’s thought on managing up and taking ownership
HELP US OUT!
Help us reach new listeners by leaving us a rating and review on Apple Podcasts! It takes less than 30 seconds and really helps our show grow, which allows us to bring on even better guests for you all! Thank you – we really appreciate it.
BOOKS AND RESOURCES:
- Get Mark’s book: The Career Toolkit, Essential Skills for Success That No One Taught You
- Get The Career Toolkit app
- Tip from Mark: set a recurring reminder/event in your calendar to think about your career. This will remind you at least every 6 months to think about your career/career goals/career path.
- Brain Bump app
- Connect with Mark on his website, LinkedIn, Twitter, Facebook and Instagram.
TRANSCRIPT
Disclaimer: The transcript that follows has been generated using artificial intelligence. We strive to be as accurate as possible, but minor errors and slightly off timestamps may be present due to platform differences.
Mike Gardon (00:00):
Hi everyone. And welcome back to another episode of the podcast. I'm your host Michael Gardon. I'm on a mission to help job seekers build thriving careers of their choosing. And to do that, I have interesting conversations with people that approach the idea of career a bit differently. My guest today is Mark Herschberg. Mark is an MIT educated technologist and career educator. He has spent his career launching and fixing new ventures at startups, fortune five, hundreds and academia. He's developed new software languages, online Marketplaces, new authentication systems and tracked criminals and terrorists on the dark web. Mark helped create the undergraduate practice opportunities program. This is MIT's career success accelerator, where he is taught skills acquisition for over 20 years. He is the author of the career toolkit essential skills for success that no one taught you. I dubbed this book, the career operating system, and it even comes with a free app as if he doesn't do enough. Mark also serves on the boards of nonprofits, techie youth, and plant a million corals. In this conversation, Mark and I get into the difference between job skills and career skills and how getting good at career skills can give you more leverage over the course of your life. We also debate approaches to career planning while having a plan is super helpful and leverageable how to do it and how to update the plan in the future. I hope you enjoy this episode with Mark Herschberg, everyone.
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Mike Gardon (02:34):
Mark. Welcome to the show. Great to have you today. Thanks for having me. It's my pleasure to be here. Excellent. My first question or statement, if you will, uh, your bio is very impressive. It starts from tracking criminals and terrorists on the dark web to creating Marketplaces and new authentication systems. Marcus spent his career launching and developing new ventures at startups and fortune five hundreds in academia. Can you give our audience a little background on how all those things fit together and where you're at today?
Mark Herschberg (03:02):
Yeah, it's quite a range.
Mark Herschberg (03:52):
Yes, I needed to be a good engineer, but there were all these other skills. I needed leadership, networking, communicating team building, no one ever taught me these skills. So to get where I wanted to go in my career, I realized I had to develop those skills in myself. There weren't a lot of resources back then. We didn't have great podcasts like this one. So I was really on my own. And as I began to develop these skills, I realized they're not just for executives. These skills benefit everyone down to the most junior person in the company and also founders and solo entrepreneurs and entrepreneurs, all of us benefit from these skills. So I began to upskill my team as well as myself and as I was doing this, MIT had done some surveys. They were asking companies about skills they were looking for. And the company said, yeah, these are the skills we want leadership communication team building.
Mark Herschberg (04:43):
We can't find them either. And by the way, they're not looking for it just for college grads or just for engineers. These are universal skills they want in everyone, but they can't find it. So at MIT, they said, well, we need to put this into our curriculum. And we created, what's known as the career success accelerator at MIT. When I heard about this, I reached out, I said, I have some resources I've been developing from my team. So they asked me to help create some modules for the class and then asked me to help co-teach. So in addition to my primary career, I've also spent over 20 years teaching in this program at MIT, along with many other wonderful people. And now also the book, the app, the speaking, and other things I do related to that. So I've had these parallel careers.
Mike Gardon (05:26):
Interesting. So you've been kind of at this for 20 years and it was all sparked by your insight or desire to become a CTO and figure out what were the skills you needed for, why did you wanna become a CTO? What was it that drew you into that like specific role
Mark Herschberg (05:44):
As an engineer or I should say, as a budding engineer growing up, I used to play with Legos a lot. I'm sure many listeners have as well, but then at a certain point I stopped playing with Legos. And if you think about this, whether it's Legos or something else, think back and ask yourself, why did you stop playing with that toy? And for me, I thought a lot about why did I stop playing with Legos? What's because spaceship number 52 was a lot like spaceship, number 51 and 50 and 49. And at a certain point, I kind of got everything I could out of building spaceships and flying them around my room. I wanted new challenges, new things to try. And I was discovering the same thing was happening with engineering. It's fun as a software engineer to put things together, by start to feel it's getting a little repetitive. And when I looked around to understand what are some different challenges, I realized that the people challenges are really interesting because there is no hard and fast rule for people. Every guideline we have, you can find an exception. That's a much more complicated set of problems and that's why I wanted to get into. So that's what propelled me in that direction.
Mike Gardon (06:53):
Okay. Real interesting. And so you end up working with the MIT career success accelerator, 20 years of that, obviously, you know, spending a couple of decades doing this. You've seen a real sort of, I guess, whole in the Market for developing these skills. Why isn't there more, uh, traction in the academic community, around building these types of skills or, or helping their graduates build these types of skills.
Mark Herschberg (07:21):
Academia moves very slowly and it's run by professors, wonderful people, but they can be a bit narrow. So if you think about the experience you show up and you say, I wanna be a Marketer. So you go to college as freshman and the professors, the ones with PhDs in Marketing say, well, we, the experts can tell you if you want to do Marketing, here are the classes you need to take the introductory, the intermediate, pick a few advanced, take all these classes. Oh, and the college might make you take a language or a history or some other random stuff. Fine. If you do all this, we'll give you a piece of paper saying you have acquired a certain level of knowledge in Marketing. They are not saying you are a good Marketer. They are not saying you are a good employee. They're just saying you have this knowledge.
Mark Herschberg (08:04):
And that was fine. When you go back about 70, 80 years, when you think mid-century when we were cogs in the machine, okay, no problem. You show up, you say, hi, I have a Marking degree. What do I do? Boss? Boss says, here's your project. Sit there, do it, come see me when you need something else to do, go okay. And you sat your desk and did your work. And that was fine. You were very narrow in focus. But as the world changed, particularly the last 20, 30, 40 years, what we saw was the removal of mill management, the flattening of teams, more dynamic teams. And it's no longer your boss says, well, I know more than you. And I will tell you what to do and just have you do the grunt work. Now the boss says, okay, team. Here's what we have to do. None of us have done this before, but we have to figure it out together with a diverse set of skills. And so now it's not just different knowledge, but you're interacting with lots of different people in different ways and taking more initiative. And unfortunately, academia hasn't caught up to this transition. We're seeing a couple other universities start to do nascent programs where they might drop in, oh, take one semester with some random assortment of skills, but you get maybe one lecture on one particular skill. Hey, don't think it's going as deep. But over the next 20 to 30 years, I think we'll start to see some changes.
Mike Gardon (09:19):
Really interesting. And so the idea kind of for, for the book, I'm assuming then, uh, which is fantastic by the way I
Mark Herschberg (09:44):
That's exactly right. I have taught this elsewhere. I've used it when training up my own teams. We know these skills are not just for MIT undergrads. So I want to reach a larger audience with the book, the app as well, by the way. So if you don't wanna Mark up your book, the app contains all the great highlights and you can favorite the ones you like and you have it all organized there for you.
Mike Gardon (10:05):
Excellent. And so we we've talked a little bit about, about skills and in the book, you kind of make a differentiation between career skills and job skills, actual skills to do your job. And so, you know, and kind of why this matters, you know, you really say, why should you invest time developing these firm skills rather than getting better at spreadsheets learning a new design tool, reading other scientific papers or anything else more directly that more directly relates to knowledge specific to your job. Can you walk us through the key difference and maybe illustrate for us a little bit of why that distinction matters?
Mark Herschberg (10:44):
Yeah. Here's the analogy I use. And as you note, there are our technical skills, knowing how to do spreadsheets, knowing how to create a campaign on social media, but then there's all these firm skills, the leadership, the team building the communication. When we were in school, we got evaluated in a very simple way. The professor said, here's a test. Here's a blank spot where you put the answer. And if you get the right answer, you get a point. If you don't, you don't get a point. Very simple. You knew what the question was. You knew where the answer went. The real world doesn't work that way. Your boss doesn't say, stick your answer over here. Sure. Sometimes she might say, give me the tally for this. Give me a report on that. But often we don't even know the right question. Your boss may ask a question.
Mark Herschberg (11:28):
It may or may not be the right one. How you come up with the answer in, when it comes to academia, your professor said, here are the notes for this week and what's gonna be on the test, comes from this week. You know exactly what the material is and the real world, your boss, doesn't say, here's everything you need to solve. The problem your boss just says, solve the problem, figure it out. So it's a lot more amorphous. It's not as structured. And these other skills become more important. The example I use to open the book, it comes from my friend, professor Charles Lieser said he gives the example of a rectangle. So we're gonna do a little bit of math right now, but I promise it'll be easy. Sixth grade math. Imagine you have a rectangle that's four by 10, and you need to maximize the area by increasing one of the sides by two units.
Mark Herschberg (12:13):
So, which do you increase the long side or the short side? And if you need to pause this, feel free to pause for a moment. But now that you're back you've of course realized you want to increase the short side from four to six to get 60 units. If you increase the long side, it's only 48. Okay? So was this have to do with our careers. If you think conceptually what's happening. When you increase the short side by two units, those two units get amplified by that long side, by that 10. Now all of us have short sides and long sides and more than two, but two works for this illustrative purpose. You might be very good at creating spreadsheets at engineering solutions at Marketing campaigns. That's your long side, but you will often engage with other people. So let's say for example, let's take the short side as communication.
Mark Herschberg (13:02):
So I'm a great engineer account with all these complex solutions. But if I can't explain them to the Marketing people, to get them on board to the product, people, to other people, to get them to buy in, no one wants to listen to my solutions, cuz it's not just stick it on the bottom of the test and get the grade. So even though I'm a great engineer, have that really long side, if my communication short, I am not so effective. And by investing a little time in that short side and getting better at communicating, we're not talking about now, you can go on the Ted talk stage, but you're a little clearer in how you explain things or your emails. Aren't so Ramly, you are much more effective and the power of your long side becomes much more useful.
Mike Gardon (13:43):
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think like what I hear the, like the buzzword around this type of concept, if you will. And I, I use it as well, is, is the idea of leverage. So like which skills have the most leverage, right? The kind of the, I might screw up the math here, but like the smallest input for the, the best bang for your buck, if you will. Right. And I think what you're kind of saying is job specific skills are, are fantastic. They're they're needed, but there there's this meta level of skills, if you will. That actually, if you invest in them that have they carry more leverage over a longer period of time, if you think about your career as a, a 40 year track, is that accurate fair statement?
Mark Herschberg (14:25):
That's exactly, exactly right now. Obviously we still have to invest in those job skills as an engineer. What I learned 20 years ago is a little out of date and all of us need to know if you're in Marketing, what's the newest social media trends, but don't do it to the exclusion of these short skills. Because as you point out, you typically get a better ROI or better return on investment per unit time on these shorter sides, the same way. Adding two to that shorter side does more than adding two to the longer side.
Mike Gardon (14:54):
A lot of our audience are, are younger professionals. You know, maybe just starting out of all the skills that you kind of talk about. Do you have a point of view on timing of those skills in terms of what, what should or, or most commonly should be focused on on first or, or is there like a specific hierarchy or way that maybe you structured the book in terms of thinking about acquiring those skills? And when
Mark Herschberg (15:20):
The book itself has 10 different skills and the way I set up the book, there's the introductory chapter, which is about seven pages. And then I say, you can jump to any chapter you want. If you really wanna start with your networking skills, go right ahead, go to chapter eight and skip the intermediate seven. But if you're not sure where to go start with chapter one, which is on career planning, because that has tools to help you figure out where do you want to go? What is the path to get there? You might realize, for example, that the path to get where you wanna go, there are checkpoints along the way. You don't just go. For example, from being an engineer to CTO before I could manage a team of a hundred people, they needed to see, I could manage a team of 10. Well, if I have zero management skills, I don't just may, I've never done before.
Mark Herschberg (16:05):
I don't even know how to do it. I'm not going to be good managing that team of 10. So if that's next in my goal, maybe I say, let me focus on those management skills so I can get this job in the next year or two, the networking. I know I gotta get better at that, but I'll deal with that later on. So how you sequence, it really comes out of the career plan you create. So I'd recommend start with chapter one. If you're not sure where to go, but feel free to jump to any chapter. You don't have to read it in order
Mike Gardon (16:32):
Going through the kind of career planning chapter, there's various timeframes to your plan. And it's, it's, it's pretty elaborate. I mean, it's great. It's pretty pretty elaborate. What do you say to somebody at the start who maybe doesn't know what they want. They don't have a clear idea of what they, they want to do. I guess,
Mark Herschberg (16:52):
Do things to keep in mind first, your plan is not fixed. You can change it anytime. Cause a lot of people, they get that paralysis of what, what if I get it wrong? What if it's not what I wanna do in 10 years? No problem toss it out. It's your plan. But if you're not sure where to start right in chapter one and also available for free on the resources page of the website, there are a number of questions for you to start asking yourself. And these are questions, not just about your job, but about your lifestyle. And they're going to help you understand where are you trying to go? What is it you want? So you can find a career that fits into your life instead of trying to squeeze a life around your career. The other thing you can do is talk to people as many people as possible, ideally, some more experience, but you can talk to your peers as well, ask these questions of them, ask people, tell me about your job. What do you like? What don't you like? What do you wish you knew when you came in? What does it take to be successful and hear their answers and start to look and say, these jobs sound more interesting than those jobs. And that's gonna give you a sense of the direction you might want to go in.
Mike Gardon (18:01):
I love starting with questions. Cause I think what, when you don't know something, right,
Mark Herschberg (19:13):
And here's something you can do right this second. Now I'm gonna have you, if you need to pause the podcast, but you do need to come back, you're going to pause the podcast, go into your phone, go into your calendar and create an event in the next week or so that says, think about my career. And you're going to set that as a recurring event, at least every six months. So do that, pause the podcast if you need to. And now that you're back, what you have is a guarantee that least once every six months, you will spend an hour thinking about these questions. Because as you point out, this is not one and done, it requires a lot of introspection. You can think about other times you don't only have to think about during this time, but now you have that reminder. So you don't drop the ball and all the episodes of this podcast that you've listened to in the intervening six months, you can take that and bring it into your thinking.
Mike Gardon (20:06):
Yeah, that makes a ton of sense. It's like anything, it's like a new skill even right? You're training yourself to build a habit to consciously think about something that is life changing, to be able to, to coalesce a plan and direct how you want the rest of your, of your life to go, especially, you know, your work life, career, life, that has massive, massive leverage. So I love that idea. So we talked about kind of planning at the beginning and let's say we have somebody sort of mid-career and they've just come across this book and they're seeing all of these, oh man, I gotta, you know, there's a lot of skills in here that are integral to my career progression. Does one stand out to you as the leverageable?
Mark Herschberg (20:49):
I don't think anyone is necessarily better than any other. I will say certainly having that plan in chapter one can help you be perhaps a little more efficient as you develop the others. If you think about at work, you would never undertake a big project without having some type of plan. Your boss would never accept that. But when it comes to our career, which is decades long, how can we possibly do that without a plan? So you already understand and know what needs to happen. And we go through in a lot more details in the book, how to do that. But I wouldn't say any one skill for different people, different skills might have better impact on their career.
Mike Gardon (21:29):
Yeah, that makes sense. I think, you know, one that came to mind as I was, as I was writing that question and thinking about it is, is negotiation. And the reason is like right now we're in this sort of weird job Market where it feels like there's more power being sort of transferred to employees in the sense, uh, that there's a, an abundance of jobs and not as much talent or, or labor to, to fill those jobs. Give us an example of, of how, why negotiation is super important and can have lasting impacts. Even if you're not in sales or even if you're not in biz dev or a lawyer,
Mark Herschberg (22:06):
If let's say you're 25 years old and you go out, you have a job offer for $70,000. But instead of taking the job as is, you've learned to negotiate, you've read my chapter on end, or you learned it some other way. And instead of just saying, okay, accept the job. You go and negotiate the job offer. It's gonna take you about five minutes or a couple emails to have that conversation. And you get a thousand dollars more. That's not a lot. We can all imagine doing that. So you get 71,000. If you do nothing else, if you stay in that job for the next 40 years, that one five minute negotiation just gotten you a thousand dollars more for 40 years in five minutes, you earned yourself $40,000. Well, how am I not learning to negotiate? Knowing I'm getting that return. Now, of course, you're thinking, wait a second.
Mark Herschberg (22:53):
I am not gonna stay on a job for 40 years and you're right. You'll have other jobs and promotions you'll negotiate for more than a thousand dollars. If you learn to negotiate, you can add tens of thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars to your lifetime earnings. Now that's just for your salary. Of course, if you're in sales or biz dev, you might do other types of negotiations. We negotiate all the time with our coworkers. That's not about how I get money out of you. It's all right. How are we gonna divide this project? And how am I gonna do the things that I find more interesting or will help my career, but not just take all the good stuff for me. We're going to negotiate. Now we can show this with negotiation. It's easy to do that math, but the reality is it applies to all these skills being a little better, not just at negotiating, but leadership and networking.
Mark Herschberg (23:40):
Communicating will have the same return. Now, no, one's going to say, oh, you're a better communicator. Here's a thousand dollars more, but it will help you stand out. It will help you get put on the bearer projects. It will help you get noticed having that bearer network, you know, right now jobs are really a dime, a dozen they're they're coming to us. It's a seller's Market. People selling their skills. When that inevitably changes what's going to happen, it will be how do I find a job? And that's where your network comes in. Again, your network's not gonna say here's a thousand dollars more, but your network's going to say, here's a job opportunity that you wouldn't have found otherwise. Or here's a key partnership for your company. And you're the person who brings it in. So all of these skills at different times and different circumstances can have that tremendous, really amplifying effect.
Mike Gardon (24:26):
Another one that stuck out to me, I think for a lot of places where our audience may be at is the, the idea of being able to manage your boss. And I've written an article on kind of this in terms of, of ownership and, and just owning the, the task that you have and understanding that your boss is looking to you to solve problems for him or her and to be then kept in the loop.
Mark Herschberg (25:04):
So this again comes from our educational experience. The professor tells me what he or she wants and says right here, here's the answer. I want stick it in this box and you go, okay, great. I know what to do. Our bosses don't do that. They don't always know what to ask. And they don't say here's how exactly you give it to me. Here's the box to write your answer in. So here's a very simple example. Now I am not a morning person. I think much better in the afternoon, even evening. If one of my team members wants to pitch me a new, big idea, okay, Mark, let's sit down and tell you how this is gonna change everything for a team. If you do it right. As I walk into the office at nine or nine 30, I'm gonna go wait a second. Like my gears are not yet turning.
Mark Herschberg (25:50):
I am not ready to hear this. Or, you know, I might politely listen and it's just not sinking in. I can't focus on catching me in the afternoon. Even calling me at night, I'm gonna give you a lot more attention. And it's nothing to do with the quality of what you're proposing. It's my ability to actually respond to it. That's gonna change throughout the day. And I happen to know this about me. And it's one of the things I tell my team, knowing that when you have your big initiative, you say, okay, when do I want to present it to the person? You could also think, how do I want to present it? Some people like to say, come into my office and we'll discuss it. Others say, write it all up so I can read it and think about it. So I might say, I wanna see a formal PowerPoint presentation, different people like different styles, knowing that is going to change how well it is perceived by your boss as you pitch this idea. So these are really simple examples, but in chapter two and working effectively, we talk about how it's not just, I'm an engineer. I solve engineering problems. It's all these other things that we need to do to be effective in our job that no one ever talks about.
Mike Gardon (26:57):
Excellent, excellent stuff. We have the book, which is fantastic. You mentioned the app. I'm curious. Why do an app? And, and, and as I understand it, everything's just there for free basically. Uh, talk to me about why you decided to do that.
Mark Herschberg (27:12):
How often do you read a book? You say, wow, this is some great stuff. And then three weeks later, you forgot 95% of it because we get busy. We move on to other books. We have our work, my job as an author, as an educator, it's not just to get you to buy pieces of paper that doesn't help you. Doesn't help me. I want you to learn it and use it and change because of it. And that means you need to retain it. Now, as I was doing the book, I was able to combine my experience as an educator, as a technologist, as someone who worked in media and understood, there was a missing piece for most books out there for most non-fiction books. And I really thought someone must have done this. I didn't plan on building it. I thought I'll just license it, but didn't exist.
Mark Herschberg (27:54):
So what I did is I went through my book and it's as if you took a highlighter and said, right, here's the key point? Here's the quote. Here's what to remember. I put it all into the app, the career toolkit app, which is free on the Android and iPhone stores. And you can use it one of two ways. One way might be about to walk into an interview or a networking event. And there were all those tips I read a few months ago where they're kind of fuzzy, open the app, flip to those particular tips and flip through them and get that kind of quick, refresh the other way to use it. And you can use it both ways at once is each day. At a time you set, it's going to push one of those tips to you as a popup notification. You just need to open the app once every 30 days.
Mark Herschberg (28:35):
So we know you're still active and we're not bothering you. It's gonna give you that tip and you go, oh, right. That's a really good idea. I'm glad I remember that. Now swipe done, because you're not gonna go back to the book. I take notes on my books. I don't even go back to the notes usually. So I know you're not going to want to go back by giving you that push. You don't have to. It takes just two seconds a day. So that's the career tool C app. We also have another app coming out the brain bump app coming from Cognos co media, which is the same thing, except instead of just my book, it has other books, podcasts, blogs, and classes. So you can get that same experience with a whole bunch of additional content. That's also gonna be free at the time we're recording. It is live in Android and we are waiting for approval from apple.
Mike Gardon (29:20):
Excellent. I mean, makes a lot of sense. I love the idea that I could just really quickly refresh on something that's immediate. We live in this immediate time. So that's super beneficial for folks. We're gonna make sure we link to all of that, those resources that you mentioned in our show notes. My last question is where else can people find? We, we got the book, we got the website. Where else can people find out about you and the work that you do on the, uh, the old Innerwebs?
Mark Herschberg (29:46):
The best thing to do is to go to my website, the career toolkit, book.com. There, you can see where to buy the book, Amazon and elsewhere. You can get touch with me. If you have questions, while I bring me into your company, you can follow me on social media. There's new content that comes out every week. So you can follow along there there's links to the app. So if you go to the app page, it will take you to the career toolkit app on the Android or iPhone. There's the resources page, which has a number of free resources, including the questions we mentioned earlier to help you think about your career. All completely free. All of that is at the career toolkit, book.com and then brain bump is at cog Nosco media, C OG, N O S C media.com. If you go there and go to the brain bump page, you can see more about it. And we link currently to the Android store. Soon, it will be an apple, or you can just search for brain bump in either of those stores.
Mike Gardon (30:39):
Excellent, Mark, thank you so much for being here. Really appreciate your time. And I really enjoyed this conversation. Thanks
Mark Herschberg (30:46):
For having me on the show.
Mike Gardon (30:47):
All right. Take care.
Outro (30:48):
CareerCloud Radio is a production of CareerCloud.com. Please review this episode on iTunes. We really appreciate it a lot. And thank you for listening.
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